What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?

[jono]

The problem with Israel's genesis was that the Jews basically forced the British out and then took over. They did their fair share of terrorism before the Brits handed it over. Also the Brits opened the door to the Jews moving there in the first place.

The Arabs & Jews lived peacefully under the British for the most part, then the Jewish population began to overrun the Arabs and scuffles over land began happening. Once the Jews had successful controlled enough of the country they were able to force the Brits out.

I don't care what the religious books say because there's no guarantee of truth.

The Jews have a right to the land as they have fought for and defended it. But they aren't victims, they started the tensions by forcing Arabs to the margins of a land the Arabs believed was rightfully theirs (and they had been there for generations).

The Jewish leaders like David Ben-Gurion, Theodore Hertzl & Menachem Begin intended on making Palestine a Jewish state since the early 1900s. The Arabs were the majority on the land however, so his plan was to change that...by force if necessary.

Its a crazy history Ben-Gurion [first prime minister] often flip flopped on whether the Arabs had any rights or not.

He famously said:

Ben-Gurion envisioned that Zionism would not be in conflict with Palestinian Arab rights. He stated in 1925:

"I am unwilling to forego even one percent of Zionism for 'peace'---yet I do not want Zionism to infringe upon even one percent of legitimate [Palestinian] Arab rights"

He like so many others were more interested in Zionism than peace. He often flip fops on the last part. Before that he said that Arabs had no rights:

In 1924 he declared:

"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?";

and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes."

Of course he flipped again:

1928, Ben-Gurion stated that there is no contradiction between Zionist and Arab aspirations. He stated that Zionism stands for absolute justice for both parties. He explained that:

"our sense of morality forbids us to deny the right of a single [Palestinian] Arab child, even though by such denial we might attain all that we seek."

And ultimately the Jew-Arab-Brit thing wasn't working out and this was said:

When Ben-Gurion heard of the Passfield White Paper in 1931 (which proposed halting the implementation of the Balfour Declaration), he was furious with "these cowardly traitors" who were responsible for the proposed new policy. He stated:

"England is a great power, the greatest empire. But to shatter even the largest stones on earth, it takes only a small quantity of explosive powder. Such powder packs tremendous force. If the creative force within us is capable of stopping this EVIL EMPIRE, then the explosive force will ignite, and we will topple this blood-stained imperium. . . . We will be those who take this war upon ourselves and beware thee, British Empire!" (Shabtai Teveth, p. 111) Ben-Gurion called on his colleagues to "prepare for a long and difficult road, if we are left with no alternatives, a road of alliance with the Arabs against these despicable powers." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 112)

Its a long story. The Arabs physically attacked first but even Ben-Gurion knew the real story:

Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

The last line pretty much spells it out. The Israelis have all the political clout and they have won the wars so they write the stories.

Even today the same thing continues. The Jews are standing in the way of Palestine becoming its own nation. They have pretty much written into history that the Arabs are terrorists who attack them for no good reason, and yet the Israelis demand peace on Israeli terms, they continue to bulldoze and build beyond the set borders.

Israel is the baby of England & the U.S. England birthed it and the U.S. fed it. Its the greatest military force in the area and if I'm correct their economy is better than our own and yet the U.S. feels the need to continuously babysit them.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

 

[Plutarch]

^^^ hm, good drop. At times I have a habit to view the Israelis as victims, but the truth seems to be further than what the israelis and the American media tells us. I never knew the Israelis had their share of agressive participation in the conflict. The compatibility of Zionism and Arab "nationalism" is pretty interesting and complicated indeed.

 

[kingblaze84]

Israel, by itself, has a right to exist in my opinion. What I do find troubling about Israel now is how they are constantly stealing land and water from their Palestinian neighbors, and are very blatant about it. The Arab League has stated several times that if Israel goes to its previous 1967 borders, it would work with America to create peace between the Palestinians, Americans, and the United Nations. As we speak though, Israel is destroying Palestinian homes, businesses, and farmland to make way for often very racist Jewish settlers, with COMPLETE American support, from the President Obama on down.

Israel, all things being fair, is a terrorist nation hellbent on apartheid and oppression. Benjamin Netanyahu is as evil a man that I've ever done research on. And so is the govt he is in charge of.

 

[StillFaggyAF]

i don't believe ISareal should exist but the reality is that it does. However it needs to stop expanding

 

[kingblaze84]

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

 

[Plutarch]

I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.

 

[queuebert]

I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.

What "consensus" are you referring to? The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point? The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there. They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

 

[kingblaze84]

I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.

What "consensus" are you referring to? The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point? The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there. They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

Hmm, I'd like to hear some Ashkenazi Jews respond to this.....

 

[Plutarch]

What "consensus" are you referring to?[/quote]

I was referring to the consensus in this thread. It seems that so far, up until Black Jerry, everyone has generally agreed that Israel has the right to exist.

The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point?

If you are referring to the idea that "the Jews" own and control America's or the world's media then I have to stop you there because I don't believe that. But I guess that's a whole nother argument.

The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there.

1. I don't think that a land should be entitled to whomever's ancestors originated there, and the world has proven this much. War, evolution, trading, migration/immigration all influence whoever owns a particular land. The "first dibs" rule isn't pratical when applied here. If your logic was followed then the Native Americans would own the United States.

2. Wait, I thought that the Jews, in addition to other ethnicities, have historically occupied that region?

3. If the Jews' ancestors did not originate in that region, who's ancestors did? How can we even find that out? Perhaps many ethnic groups have ties to the ancestors who originated there? Seems like a legitimate and impossible slippery slope to me.

They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

This I can mostly believe and agree. The fact that Israel is the West's puppet and that the American media is biased is obvious and has already been acknowledge in this thread.

 

[moedays]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

 

[moedays]

*You

 

[kingblaze84]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.

 

[StillFaggyAF]

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

 

[LUClEN]

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

 

[janklow]

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

 

[LUClEN]

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land

 

[husnain1]

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

 

[janklow]

It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land

your understanding seems to overlook the fact that Britain conquered and controlled Palestine, the UN didn't exist at the time, and the League of Nations (which might have been involved) did not include the US

the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians.

why, it's almost like this has nothing to do with my post!

you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

convince me it means America decided where Israel would be formed

 

[LUClEN]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

 

[husnain1]

It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land

your understanding seems to overlook the fact that Britain conquered and controlled Palestine, the UN didn't exist at the time, and the League of Nations (which might have been involved) did not include the US

the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. why, it's almost like this has nothing to do with my post!

you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

convince me it means America decided where Israel would be formed

what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm

U.S.-ISRAELI RELATIONS

Commitment to Israel's security and well being has been a cornerstone of U.S. policy in the Middle East since Israel's founding in 1948, in which the United States played a key supporting role. Israel and the United States are bound closely by historic and cultural ties as well as by mutual interests.

I pointed to the Balfour Declaration for a historical perspective on the issue not to answer your question of American support in the creation of Israel.