Raven on SCSA Podcast Discussion Thread

[Broddie]

I heard this the other day. Dude is absolutely one of the greatest minds in the business. What he said about ring psychology and spot monkeys was so on point that it cleared up for me why I go so many months without watching Raw. You watch Lucha Underground or NJPW there are spots yes but with conviction and well thought out execution. It's very meticulous and because of that highly effective in engaging the viewer emotionally. I mean there's a language barrier with me an NJPW and yet I get it all because of the masterful execution of ring psychology.

You watch WWE it's big spot after big spot with out any spacing and kick out after kick out during finishers that it diminishes all the sequences & takes worth away from the moves in a match with no real rhyme or reason.

 

[jono]

Raven is a genius. His synopsis explains why so many indie guys never make it. When he talked about selling and building a personality being the major aspects to getting over and staying over it rrally made.it.obvious that some guys dont get.it.

He emphasized the little things, what se people see as the.minor details of working. I see the generational gap between the.talents widening as time goes on. You can see that action movie style so prevelent

 

[RawAce]

Lol @ raven saying he never slammed anybody in his whole career

I member on his moveset on svr was only "non lifting moves"

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

I heard this the other day. Dude is absolutely one of the greatest minds in the business. What he said about ring psychology and spot monkeys was so on point that it cleared up for me why I go so many months without watching Raw. You watch Lucha Underground or NJPW there are spots yes but with conviction and well thought out execution. It's very meticulous and because of that highly effective in engaging the viewer emotionally. I mean there's a language barrier with me an NJPW and yet I get it all because of the masterful execution of ring psychology.

You watch WWE it's big spot after big spot with out any spacing and kick out after kick out during finishers that it diminishes all the sequences & takes worth away from the moves in a match with no real rhyme or reason.

i think this goes for wrestling period not just wwe, ive seen a lil of that in roh and lucha, not that its not exciting

 

[DOPEdweebz]

If you ever watch shoot interviews like me people have always said that Raven has a great mind for the business. If given the chance ironicalky he could be the next Paul Heyman, but I dunno why TNA hasnt just given him the nod.

 

[jono]

I heard this the other day. Dude is absolutely one of the greatest minds in the business. What he said about ring psychology and spot monkeys was so on point that it cleared up for me why I go so many months without watching Raw. You watch Lucha Underground or NJPW there are spots yes but with conviction and well thought out execution. It's very meticulous and because of that highly effective in engaging the viewer emotionally. I mean there's a language barrier with me an NJPW and yet I get it all because of the masterful execution of ring psychology.

You watch WWE it's big spot after big spot with out any spacing and kick out after kick out during finishers that it diminishes all the sequences & takes worth away from the moves in a match with no real rhyme or reason.

i think this goes for wrestling period not just wwe, ive seen a lil of that in roh and lucha, not that its not exciting

That shit Raven is talking about is far more prevalent in ROH and Lucha Underground. WWE style isnt even fast or spot heavy, it is becoming heavy on kickouts of finishers but thats about it

 

[Broddie]

Lucha Underground matches have better psychology than they're being given credit for in this thread. Plus psychology extends beyond matches it's inherent to crafting compelling characters. Which is why Raven was like "all you really need is a handful of moves" because character presentation is key and the core of it all. Psychology is key in how they carry themselves through their gimmick, how they cut their promos, how they make their nuances and mannerisms key characteristics of their character etc.

If you don't care about the characters in the match then you don't give a shit. That's why with WWE many people get bored because nothing about the new characters is engaging going into the match and it takes more than just technical and in ring ability to carry a program segment. This is why people gravitate towards vets like Lesnar, Taker and even love him or hate him Cena because they at least have well defined characters and people know what they're all about clearly by now.

Compelling characters like Hulk Hogan or Macho Man is why we kept coming back in the golden era. Most of you are familiar with the attitude era so I won't even elaborate on that. So now I ask you what is Ryback about?, Cesaro? what is the actual purpose of The New Day? what is Dolph Ziggler's end game? or Roman Reigns'? if you can't answer those type of questions this is why they don't make any new stars.

It was a rare miracle that they even managed to at least communicate to their audience that Kevin Owens purpose is that of a price fighter. But then what is Neville's story? or the Lucha Dragons? see what I'm getting at?

The booking goes flip floppy with all their potential new stars even the ones that actually do try to go add a little more dimension and flavor like a Bray Wyatt and it just leads to confusing inconsistency that keeps people bewildered and annoyed as opposed to entertained.

LU has been much better at presenting well defined and layered 3 dimensional characters. They don't just feel like interchangeable faces in inconsequential bouts. You know what Prince Puma is about and Johnny Mundo's whole game is well defined. Hell look at what they did with Alberto Rodriguez and then look at what WWE did.

That has to do with having bookers who comprehend the importance of psychology in presenting a wrestling program. It's what makes suspension of disbelief a plausible option for the audience. It gets them invested in the world of what's being presented instead of being distracted by asking themselves "why is this random ass match even happening?" something I've seen many people complain about online when they talk about Raw and a key reason they keep losing so many viewers.

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

oh they definitely have better character and storyline development, that goes w/o saying.

but the description u gave for in-ring psychology

it's big spot after big spot with out any spacing and kick out after kick out during finishers that it diminishes all the sequences & takes worth away from the moves in a match with no real rhyme or reason.

goes a lil more for roh and lucha than wwe imo. but lucha is prolly the most consistent high quality wrestling of all of em.

 

[Broddie]

Shit all they really have to do is look back at Daniel Bryan (last legitimate star they actually made) in 2013. What was that all about? he wanted to fulfill his dream of being WWE champion by any means. Even while the system conspired against him and kept trying to keep him away from that accomplishment.

There is purpose there and it's a universally relatable one at that. How these people don't get that if they applied that same philosophy to the rest of their roster they'd make some actual noise is beyond me.

 

[jono]

Lucha has those neat backstage segments but ultimately the questions still remain:

Who is Prince Puma? What is his character other than "luchador"? Same for Drago, Aerostar, and all the other assorted flippy guys on the roster.

You can put anyone of those guys in any match featuring the other and it wouldn't be much different. There is no major character differences between them.

Some guys have defined characters in LU and ROH but most dont. Angelico has no character at all, he just jumps off shit and he is apart of a cool tandem that is well defined character-wise.

You can ask that question for everybody on ROH's roster. Who is ACH? Cedric Alexander etc them cats generic as fuck evem Jay Lethal isn't a discernably DIFFERENT character.

If I am just clicking on the TV show and I land on ROH my though process would be:

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic black dude

Generic black dude

WTF IS THAT? Dalton Castle? Get this faggot off my tv!!

Because he is the only guy on the roster with a character.

If i was watching lucha it would be the same shit just "generic luchador" a bunch of times and "Hey i remember him from WWE RAW"

Just because they use better STORYlines doesn't mean they have definitive CHARACTERS. Being a flippy luchador isn't a character when there are half a dozen other flippy luchadors on the roster.

What separates Hogan from other giants is how he talks, how he moves, hus mannerisms, his style in ring and how he works. He stands out even among other generic big dudes like the Warlord or the Barbarian.

Its the one thing Vince still does well, most of these guys look and behave in unique ways. Let's not lie to ourselves.

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

idk man, the characters stand out a bit, but we dont really see them delve deep in to who they are or why they act how they do like that enough anymore ion think. for example, why does dolph not wanna show off anymore, why does he randomly wanna rock out, what really made dean the way he is, ko has slight psychopathic ways, lets explore that. and then when they try to do it, its half ass, like when they trot ryback out there to talk about elvis, and the storylines do them no favors in wwe.

 

[genocidecutter]

"The least important part of pro wrestling is the actually wrestling"

 

[jono]

idk man, the characters stand out a bit, but we dont really see them delve deep in to who they are or why they act how they do like that enough anymore ion think. for example, why does dolph not wanna show off anymore, why does he randomly wanna rock out, what really made dean the way he is, ko has slight psychopathic ways, lets explore that. and then when they try to do it, its half ass, like when they trot ryback out there to talk about elvis, and the storylines do them no favors in wwe.

I didnt say it was perfect but nobody else on the roster performs the same style as Ziggler or looks like him. Remember there were was a time where the roster consisted of several Randy Orton look alikes.

Characters grow over time, Ziggler changed things but he still the same character for the most part, he still pretty much focuses on "stealing the show" and being that cocky babyface. He is in that weird space where it looked like he was turning heel and then they abandoned it.

What little development they have in WWE isn't matched anywhere else.

 

[Broddie]

Lucha has those neat backstage segments but ultimately the questions still remain:

Who is Prince Puma? What is his character other than "luchador"? Same for Drago, Aerostar, and all the other assorted flippy guys on the roster.

Prince Puma wanted to be crowned the best on that roster and his goal was to become champ. Not the most original thing but it was clear, concise and straight to the point.

You can ask that question for everybody on ROH's roster. Who is ACH? Cedric Alexander etc them cats generic as fuck evem Jay Lethal isn't a discernably DIFFERENT character.

If I am just clicking on the TV show and I land on ROH my though process would be:

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic white dude

Generic black dude

Generic black dude

WTF IS THAT? Dalton Castle? Get this faggot off my tv!!

Because he is the only guy on the roster with a character.

Notice that I never brought up ROH? that was deliberate because I agree with you on this point. It's a big reason I don't really watch ROH right now.

Its the one thing Vince still does well, most of these guys look and behave in unique ways. Let's not lie to ourselves.

No he does not because if he did we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

[RawAce]

Roh, full of generic white dudes?

Idk if yall even watch the product lol

Roh got brothas on the card regularly and nobody is generic

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

generic may be a stretch but there are quite a few on the undercard that there's nothin special about,

adam cole, dalton castle, moose fall under the standout category imo tho