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Punisher__
New member
mrjun18;704620 said:Mary >>>>> any female R&B artist that debuted in 1990 or after.
Care to elaborate?
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Punisher__
New member
Mrslim1;704785 said:Mary helped invent a new sound ( Hip Hop Soul ). A sound that Mariah herself has used. So I am going with MJB
Mary didn't "invent" that sound.
People were fusing hip hop and soul music YEARS before Mary.
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arbitration
New member
Wow, this is a tough one. Both artists innovated a new sound (Mary- hip hop soul, Mariah- r&b pop sound), and both have the most unique voices in the game. I may have to give the slight advantage to Mary for the sole reason that she has tried to experiment more, especially with her recent music, whereas Mariah has consistently maintained the same pop/r&b vibe for the past decade or so. But I have no problem with either
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Punisher__;704796 said:Mary didn't "invent" that sound.
People were fusing hip hop and soul music YEARS before Mary.
I said " helped ' invent. She was an important part of that sound coming popular. But regardless of the particulars I choose Mary
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Punisher__
New member
Mrslim1;704914 said:I said " helped ' invent. She was an important part of that sound coming popular. But regardless of the particulars I choose Mary
Why do you say that?
Janet Jackson was topping the charts in the 80's, with her hip hop infused r&b...
If anybody made it popular, it was Janet.
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Punisher__;704930 said:Why do you say that?
Janet Jackson was topping the charts in the 80's, with her hip hop infused r&b...
If anybody made it popular, it was Janet.
I consider Janet more of Pop sound . We can agree to disagree tho.
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Punisher__
New member
What a lot of people tend to forget is that New Jack Swing was also a fusion of hip-hop and r&b music...and it predates whatever "hip hop soul" is.
I'm going with Mariah here. Because, well, she popularized it and took it to mainstream, pop artists.
I'm going with Mariah here. Because, well, she popularized it and took it to mainstream, pop artists.
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Punisher__;704954 said:What a lot of people tend to forget is that New Jack Swing was also a fusion of hip-hop and r&b music...and it predates whatever "hip hop soul" is.
I'm going with Mariah here. Because, well, she popularized it and took it to mainstream, pop artists.
Yea it is . I guess what I moreso mean is that MJB had more what you would call traditional hip hop beats with soul singing over them.
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Mrslim1;704937 said:I consider Janet more of Pop sound . We can agree to disagree tho.
Most of Janet's pop songs have a r&b base sound..
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Punisher__
New member
What exactly has Mary done that is "influential"?
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Punisher__;704796 said:Mary didn't "invent" that sound.
People were fusing hip hop and soul music YEARS before Mary.
Mary innovated it and took it where it had never gone before.
Mary's catalogue is also waaay more diverse and spread out than Mariah's. Besides a stronger voice, and the success and a few other categories I can think of right now, Mariah ain't got much on Mary. Whether it's music videos, subject matter, critically acclaimed albums/classics, style, etc..... Mary beats in most categories IMO.
Her music speaks for itself.... Ask Monica, Keyshia Cole, etc. and just about any other female R&B artist that debuted after her. I bet most of them would have Mary on a higher ranking than Mariah in terms of influence on their careers. What exactly has Mariah done that is so influential? And don't say "fusing pop/r&b" to mainstream, because many artists like Whitney, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, Karyn White, Jody Watley etc. all did that shit in the 80's. LOL.Punisher__;705253 said:What exactly has Mary done that is "influential"?
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Punisher__
New member
mrjun18;709124 said:Mary innovated it and took it where it had never gone before.
Mary's catalogue is also waaay more diverse and spread out than Mariah's. Besides a stronger voice, and the success and a few other categories I can think of right now, Mariah ain't got much on Mary. Whether it's music videos, subject matter, critically acclaimed albums/classics, style, etc..... Mary beats in most categories IMO.
Her music speaks for itself.... Ask Monica, Keyshia Cole, etc. and just about any other female R&B artist that debuted after her. I bet most of them would have Mary on a higher ranking than Mariah in terms of influence on their careers. What exactly has Mariah done that is so influential? And don't say "fusing pop/r&b" to mainstream, because many artists like Whitney, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, Karyn White, Jody Watley etc. all did that shit in the 80's. LOL.
When people say that Mariah fused pop/r&b and took it mainstream arenas, it just means that from '95 - '00, Mariah was the only pop act who was doing this type of fusion...shortly before it exploded, mainstream wise. Mariah basically made it her style to add urban elements to her pop music, in which every song she released either had a rapper featured on it, or had r&b/hip hop elements in some other form. It did become a trend, mainstream wise, shortly after Mariah did it.
And to say Mary "innovated it", you'd be ignoring previous work by artists such as Janet Jackson.
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Punisher__;709150 said:When people say that Mariah fused pop/r&b and took it mainstream arenas, it just means that from '95 - '00, Mariah was the only pop act who was doing this type of fusion...shortly before it exploded, mainstream wise. Mariah basically made it her style to add urban elements to her pop music, in which every song she released either had a rapper featured on it, or had r&b/hip hop elements in some other form. It did become a trend, mainstream wise, shortly after Mariah did it.
And to say Mary "innovated it", you'd be ignoring previous work by artists such as Janet Jackson.
Janet did not innovate it. She was arguably the back bone in terms of popularizing it in the 80s and was at the forefront of it, but there was other aritsts doing it too.....but then again it was more pop/rnb than hiphop soul.
Janet did what Mariah was doing 10-15 years earlier so Mariah really wasn't the only person doing that pop/soul fusion. From 'Control' to 'All For You', Janet held it down....Mariah was there too and may have been a bit more popular in the second half of the 90's but Janet was still doing her thing.
Mary did innovate the hip-hop/soul sound like never before.... When Janet was around in the 80's, yes she was the most popular female artist doing it along with Whitney and others, but When Mary dropped it was just "different",. Janet and them were singing on New Jack Swing beats, but Mary was on that next shit... more urban hiphop/soul than ever. Not just her own work, but work on other peoples stuff, collabos, her style/appearance etc.a ll have a part in the innovation of modern hiphop/soul. Right then is when Aaliyah, Brandy etc all dropped and bit off that sound. She IS called the queen of hiphop/soul for a reason and I have never heard anyone say anything about it or deny her of that title.
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arbitration
New member
Punisher__;705253 said:What exactly has Mary done that is "influential"?
[video=youtube;raRCD8H8BuI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raRCD8H8BuI[/video]
One of the most underrated songs. Both of them killed it.
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Punisher__
New member
mrjun18;709833 said:Janet did not innovate it. She was arguably the back bone in terms of popularizing it in the 80s and was at the forefront of it, but there was other aritsts doing it too.....but then again it was more pop/rnb than hiphop soul.
Janet did what Mariah was doing 10-15 years earlier so Mariah really wasn't the only person doing that pop/soul fusion. From 'Control' to 'All For You', Janet held it down....Mariah was there too and may have been a bit more popular in the second half of the 90's but Janet was still doing her thing.
Mary did innovate the hip-hop/soul sound like never before.... When Janet was around in the 80's, yes she was the most popular female artist doing it along with Whitney and others, but When Mary dropped it was just "different",. Janet and them were singing on New Jack Swing beats, but Mary was on that next shit... more urban hiphop/soul than ever. Not just her own work, but work on other peoples stuff, collabos, her style/appearance etc.a ll have a part in the innovation of modern hiphop/soul. Right then is when Aaliyah, Brandy etc all dropped and bit off that sound. She IS called the queen of hiphop/soul for a reason and I have never heard anyone say anything about it or deny her of that title.
See, this is where it becomes problematic.
Firstly, Mary didn't innovate the "hip-hop soul" sound because she was not the first artist to fuse the two genres. People tend to forget that New Jack Swing was/is also a hybrid fusion of hip hop and soul music, and Janet was doing this years before Mary. To say "Mary innovated it", you're ignoring albums like "Control" and "Rhythm Nation 1814." Think of it like this...if a car stops on a highway, and another car hits it, and another, and another, and the chain reaction continues. Can you really pick the 4th car, for example, and say that is what caused the accident? After Janet did it, you had Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Jody Watley, AND Mary...all following suit. Collabos, as well.
And with regard to Mariah and Janet. Janet was more of a contemporary r&b artist, as opposed to a vanilla, pop, adult contemporary artist, like a Mariah. From '95-'00, Mariah was the ONLY fully pop act doing it, on a consistent basis. I guess you could make an argument for Madonna. But Madonna really only had ONE album that had urban influences, Bedtime Stories. The whole fusion of the two (pop/urban) didn't become a staple in her music, consistently, until after Mariah.
Janet wasn't making pop music, per se. She was making r&b music that just so happened to be popular.
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Punisher__;710586 said:See, this is where it becomes problematic.
Firstly, Mary didn't innovate the "hip-hop soul" sound because she was not the first artist to fuse the two genres. People tend to forget that New Jack Swing was/is also a hybrid fusion of hip hop and soul music, and Janet was doing this years before Mary. To say "Mary innovated it", you're ignoring albums like "Control" and "Rhythm Nation 1814." Think of it like this...if a car stops on a highway, and another car hits it, and another, and another, and the chain reaction continues. Can you really pick the 4th car, for example, and say that is what caused the accident? After Janet did it, you had Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Jody Watley, AND Mary...all following suit. Collabos, as well.
And with regard to Mariah and Janet. Janet was more of a contemporary r&b artist, as opposed to a vanilla, pop, adult contemporary artist, like a Mariah. From '95-'00, Mariah was the ONLY fully pop act doing it, on a consistent basis. I guess you could make an argument for Madonna. But Madonna really only had ONE album that had urban influences, Bedtime Stories. The whole fusion of the two (pop/urban) didn't become a staple in her music, consistently, until after Mariah.
Janet wasn't making pop music, per se. She was making r&b music that just so happened to be popular.
I guess we agree to disagree. Its like Puff Daddy and Mainstream pop/rap.....He wasnt the first to do it or anything like that, you had MC Hammer and etc. before him, but what Puff did took it to a whole new level in the shiny suit era. Mary kind did the same thing with hiphop/soul. Janet's music wasn't exactly hiphop/soul just because they sang over hiphop beats. All NJS artist did that, from Jodeci, Tony Toni Tone, GUy etc... but the sound was different and more urban hihop influenced than before when she stepped on the scene. This sound she brought is mostly what is influenced by hiphop/soul artists of today. And yes Janet was making pop music but more so pop/soul rather than hiphop soul. Not exactly R&B that popular either. Songs like Escapade, Love Will Never Do, When I think of You etc. sounds more 'pop' than R&B if you really listen to what Jam and Lewis did on them tracks.
I guess we agree to disagree.
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